Anselm Kiefer Structures Are No Longer Valid
Joseph Beuys, Jannis Kounellis, Anselm Kiefer, Enzo Cucchi, Jean-Christophe Ammann. Basel June 1985.
Structures are no longer valid. The class that established structures is gone. This makes our profession so difficult: we must do both; we have to establish rules and simultaneously fight against them....
On the one hand Europe has lost its class structure and on the other hand an ongoing transformation has taken place due to American influence on Europe after World War II in the realms of technology and the media. Kounellis says that America has no culture, but I believe that it does and that its culture is predicated on the media: a tradition of media and information. Europe has a culture with a tradition of history....
Kandinsky was connected with the Brucke and the Blue Rider: they had a concept and created a reality. But I prefer Fautrier with his suffering and self-absorption. And his purpose in bringing about changes was just as strong. As a result I see in Fautrier a stronger paradigm than in Kandinsky....
I perceive Existentialism as a necessity of decision. This is the essential aspect of Existentialism and simultaneously the most subversive factor....
Perspective and Impressionism were tentative attempts to deal with the world of appearance because of a fear to look inside. Cubism is structure and order. Now both epidermis and order are no longer possible.... The accidental aspects of Impressionist composition are to be understood as a reaction. And the reaction of Cezanne is to be seen as a response to Impressionism. One cannot simply disregard Impressionism. As a dialectic antithesis it was important. The Impressionists had the idea of dissolution; they wanted to represent light, not bodies and not shadows, but light for itself. Frequently I find this tedious, but there is an idea behind it: Atomization is a modern idea....
Mondrian began with his paintings of the seashore, with blue trees and the cathedral. These paintings were totally symbolist paintings.... Until the very end (and unlike van Doesburg and other de Stijl artists) Mondrian remains a Symbolist and an Expressionist....
I do not believe that there is an external element to be disrupted now. The situation is different from the period of the Dadaists. There is nothing to overthrow now, because everything has been co-opted. To be subversive now in the sense of Dadaism would be reactionary, because now it would be the attitude of model students....
In 1968 the end of art was announced, but this was for political reasons and for the wrong reasons. At that time it was believed that as long as there were only formal relationships, one did not have to deal with a luxury such as art....
Fascism and war brought about stagnation. This continued during the period of reconstruction. Later there was an attempt at revolution which never happened. It was too late and nothing has changed....
When I went to school there was Pop Art. The Americans dismissed us from our responsibilities. They mailed us Care packages and Democracy. The search for our own identity was postponed. After the "time of misfortune" as it has been called euphemistically, one thought in 1946 to begin anew. Even now we talk about the "Point Zero." But this is not possible; this is nonsense. The past is tabulated because to confront it would necessitate denial and disgust....
The Germans always had difficulties with their identity. Either it was too much and too loud, or it was hidden and too subservient. The French always had a healthy self-confidence. When they spoke of a "grande nation" it was not dangerous. De Gaulle could say on Martinique: "Behind me is the ocean. In front of me is France." ...
When one speaks of Israel, one must, of course, speak about the intellectual concept. There are no visual representations in the Bible or the Kabbala, but only intellectual concepts.... The Bible says: "In the Beginning was the Word." Therefore only the letters were sacred, never pictures. One could play with the letters of the Bible, change them around until they yield results. For the Jews the world, the whole cosmos, is in the letter....
Painting is a fact which is comprehended by the glance. Literature is more like a river.... To put it differently, painting is quiescence....
There is a reciprocal action between the work of art and the viewer. The river changes the work of art and criticism can also change the artist.... There are so many ideas afloat, any of them could have triggered the work of art. It is impossible to determine exactly if the idea has been transmitted by the critic, or if the work itself has determined its outcome….
I am able only to do what stirs me. I want to perceive with my senses things which at the moment are not generally perceived. I do not share, as yet, Beuys's consciousness or hope that all people are moving to a certain point where they all become artists. I am of the opinion that there are artists and non-artists. I think that this is the way it always was and always will be. I do not believe that we are in the center of the world. It is possible that there are gods who do not relate to humans. As an artist, I believe that it is possible to depict these forces. I know it sounds absurd when I say that man can perceive some things and adumbrate powers, which do not relate to him. But perhaps the artist, unlike the non-artist, is able to do just that....
I want to say something about Picasso as a revolutionary. A revolution in the history of art is a reflection of the history of society. Art cannot revolutionize society. It is a reflection of that revolution....
You [Joseph Beuys] have revolutionized art. But I do not see that you have revolutionized society directly. You have depicted what has not yet existed....
Art and life are not two separate realms, but they have shifted out of phase with each other....
Why have our standards fallen so low? Why do we have all these ugly things which nobody needs? Industrial manufacture and new materials have led to truly unlimited possibilities of forms. There are no longer any natural constraints which depend on materials such as wood and stone. We simply manufacture everything that is technically possible and lack new structures on which to base our decisions....
Until the artist is dead, we are not able to determine his work in all its dimensions.
Notes
Anselm Kiefer, excerpts from Joseph Beuys, Jannis Kounellis, Anselm Kiefer, Enzo Cucchi, Ein Gesprach, ed. Jacqueline Burckhardt (Zurich: Parkett Verlag, 1986), 12, 15, 22, 24, 25, 26, 34, 37, 39, 40, 41, 48–49, 53. 64,112–13, 119, 120, 131, 169. This conversation, moderated by Jean-Christophe Ammann, took place in Basel in June and October 1985.